The Polygon news is pretty heartbreaking. I look forward to whatever projects you and the others have coming up - your idea here sounds like something I would really really enjoy.
I don’t get why some games they are like “We aren’t going to talk about it in detail because X controversy” and then others they have a whole segment on it and then just say “we report on games”. Pick a lane and stick to it guys! If this is a change in policy, fine, I just hope you stick to it more evenly than you have in the past. Right now it just feels like “yeah but we like this game so we’re going to talk about it anyway” vs “we aren’t touching that game with a 10ft pole because controversy”
i had to recently drop my patreon sub due to personal financial issues and had been planning to sign back on asap, but after the “we don’t do ‘promotion’” dodge i’m not sure anymore…
Tbh “yeah but this game means a lot to me/us” is the only real reason that makes sense to me for deviating from any ethical policy on boycotting media, and I’m not as hard-nosed about judging that as I used to be.
They’ve see-sawed a bit over the years (fawning over No Rest for the Wicked vs talking about crunch for Lego Star Wars) and it feels confusing from the outside but I’m reminding myself they’re people, they have interests and feelings that aren’t just financial selfishness or moral self righteousness. Do I change my mind or point of view over time? Hell, from day to day?
And to be clear, my perspective is 100% because I just finished Monsters: A Fan’s Dilemma by Claire Dederer, so now I’m all invested in deep conversations about this stuff that feels simple to most people. But basically that book argues against the inherently capitalist framing of “we are what we are fans of” as “we are what we buy.”
So I’m at a place now where I’m much less sympathetic to the mindset that what you watch, read or play, what art you appreciate or media you consume, makes you a good or bad person. In Dederer’s words, “you’ll have to find some other way to accomplish that.” I know it feels and sounds right to say “vote with your wallet,” but I think that’s because we feel like we have so few ways to feel like we are making an actual good difference in this world so we fall back on our consumption habits when, in my opinion, you’ll have better luck zooming in to the more local level, on how people interact with people around them and their communities, instead of corporations.
Like, in practical terms, spending money on a product whose profit will go to a company that is also making money off of helping a government somewhere slaughter innocents seems abhorrent. But what is the actual math of that? If I paid $1 for a 14-day trial of game pass to play oblivion, THEN found Clair Obscur through that and dropped oblivion and played E33 for the rest of the trial (hint: that’s exactly what I did), am I responsible for more or less deaths than someone who did the same but only played oblivion, or someone who paid full price for a month but is only playing Blue Prince or Avowed or South of Midnight?
If that sounds disingenuous as a line of questioning or like a straw man or something, I totally get feeling that way, but then what is the counter argument? That any financial contribution whatsoever is immoral? Or that the morality is something we can all just kind of sense, that we can feel out within our guts, instead of engaging with spiraling whataboutisms? Because here’s the thing: that feeling method will lead to different results for different people, and if you try to be absolutist about it, you will very quickly end up indicting yourself. We’re in late stage capitalism, after all, and we’ve all got smartphones and other products made by slave labour.
So then go with the feelings barometer, in my book, but at the same time, accept that different people will feel and behave differently than you, that that doesn’t make them immoral, and keep in mind that that is still within the context of their consumptive, consumer behaviour that, by and large, is a drop in the bucket. I’m not saying don’t recycle because it won’t make a difference, but I am saying don’t take yourself too seriously judging people who recycle sometimes, and sometimes don’t.
Because, and here’s where I’ll end this stupid fucking Ted talk I wasn’t planning on launching into, eventually that attitude is gonna come back around to yourself, and we are all under that monumental capitalist thumb, so we really, really want to exercise the muscle of cutting others some slack or else we won’t be willing or able to do the same for ourselves.
Honestly, I’d just like some consistency. If their view going forward is just going to be “we report on games we want to play regardless of controversy” that’s fine. But a few times they’ve decided mid-week not to talk about a game they were going to (games I was interested in hearing about) because they were too controversial. So it just feels kinda hypocritical and flip-floppy to hear them approach this game controversy completely differently. If they’ve changed their minds about it, that’s fine, I just wish they’d acknowledge that’s what happened. The way they brought it up didn’t feel like “we’ve changed our policy regarding how we’re handling this sort of thing” so much as “we just want to excuse THIS game because we want to talk about it anyway”. Like, yeah, man, I guarantee you most of the team that created the Hogwarts Legacy game really wishes JKR would’ve stfu and gone back to being a person we could admire instead so that their game didn’t get sidelined by her shitty opinions too.
Not to be flippant, but I just don’t think they really have a policy and they’re winging it (different rules for every GOTY tournament or battle bracket rubrics changing mid-episode, anyone?) and this was them wanting to talk about a game dropping that they had an important history with, and at the same time not wanting to ignore an important social cause that that game was in conflict with, and ultimately their handling of that situation falling flat with some people because those two impulses just don’t cleanly reconcile.
Like, for you, if you stand with BDS, then you just don’t discuss games by companies that are being boycotted. That makes sense and is very simple. For them, they wanted to acknowledge that source of controversy around the title, but not outright boycott it.
And the difference in approach between this game and Hogwarts is probably a combination of how much this game means to them, how directly linked the game is to the social cause, and maybe even it just being a couple of years between now and then and them not thinking they have a precedent they have to live up to. Now, I will grant you, Plante’s response to reader mail makes it sound like they think they have a comprehensive approach to covering controversial games, but honestly I just think that’s a one-off explanation that could have been skipped because yeah the “it’s not a paid promotion” point kind of felt insulting enough to invalidate the whole answer lol, that’s not at all what subscribers were worried about
With all that being said, be mad at them, vent here, unsub if you want, that all totally makes sense and is fair to do and I understand where you’re coming from. I don’t want to minimize the plight of Palestinians or give Microsoft a pass or any of that, either. But I think there’s just a personal side to this one that I sympathize with and I can understand them thinking that, on balance, it’s not the wrong thing to do.
First time, long time just to share my support for Chris (and all the other impacted staffers). Keeping an eye out for how to support your next venture!
So ready for your new podcast Plante! My subscribe finger is itching just send it my way. Also thanks for the delicate but appropriate way you all covered the BDS/Oblivion situation. You as a podcast do such a great job of towing the line between politics, speaking up for what is right, and remembering that we are here to hear you talk about video games first. Hats off IMHO
About not boycotting games on the show- why didn't you guys talk about Hogwarts Legacy in 2023? I was under the impression that you guys were refusing to discuss it because of Rowling's anti trans sentiment, but with what you were saying about the BDS/Microsoft stuff it seems like a bit of a double standard.
Anyways, I'm just curious, not mad or anything. My heart goes out to Plante and all the polygon ppl who got laid off.
i’m glad you at least touched on the BDS boycott of microsoft but the bit about “we don’t do promotion” seems like a big cop out and a way to dodge responsibility. i’m well aware you don’t do paid promotions, but you can’t pretend that your coverage has no influence on your listeners’ choices to buy or not buy games. i’ve bought MANY games after positive coverage here and i’ve surely decided NOT to buy a few games after hearing your coverage as well. deciding to cover a game and HOW to cover it, and the influence it will have on your fans are things you need to take responsibility for.
I hear you, I just have a different opinion. In the same way it would be unusual for a newspaper to cease reviewing specific films because of its investors or creators, I think it would be strange for us to stop covering major games. I do, however, agree it's important for us to include the context around the game. And I do recognize we haven't been consistent with this policy -- that's for us to be better about in the future.
That said, totally get if you passionately disagree. The tricky thing about journalistic ethics is that they aren't hard and fast rules that everybody agrees upon. And there are no perfect solutions.
but you already don’t cover all major games. as someone pointed out elsewhere, you choose not to cover hogwarts legacy. did the transphobia of rowling have a part in that decision? as a listener, i certainly assumed it did, and if it did, i am now led to assume that the besties are concerned with the politics of JKR but not concerned with the palestinian genocide… especially given that most of your time spent talking about it on this episode was dedicated to explaining why there was, in fact, no ethical issues in covering it, and not even talking about any of your own views on the boycott.
Not covering a one-off Harry Potter game is a much different ask than not covering any game with connections to Microsoft. To pretend otherwise is disingenuous. They made a very fair statement about the boycott to their adult audience who are consumers capable of making their own decisions based on the information provided.
Adding support for a Chris Plante solo podcast and also saying I thought Venn diagram of the Besties and The Mountain Goats fans was literally just me.
A few years back, I started a second part-time career writing about video games and ended up at Valnet, like so many do. I won't put the organization on blast, I'll just say the content they were asking me to produce didn't align with what I wanted to create, and I amicably left the business. Wishing you, Chris, all the best, along with everyone else let go from Polygon.
Here's a small little bit of support I can offer. Five free gifted codes for Besties Patreon. Code below, just copy and paste the link. Please only take one. First come first serve.
Hey Chris, just wanted to reach out as your sometimes-internet-pal and say I am sad to see you have to move on from Polygon but exponentially more excited to see what you do next. There will come a day where this will be remembered as a stepping stone on your way to greater things. I know I speak for a large amount of your fans when I say we'll be there with you.
And if you ever need help with design or voiceover or anything I can assist with, don't hesitate to reach out! I'd be proud to help.
Here for you Chris. I wouldn't scoff at another Patreon.
I wonder what the format will be. They’ve tried lots of fun formats in the resties
The Polygon news is pretty heartbreaking. I look forward to whatever projects you and the others have coming up - your idea here sounds like something I would really really enjoy.
Good luck with your next project Chris! I'm excited to see, hear, and support what you do. My heart's with all those affected by the layoffs :(
The good news is that you can finally open that copy of Demons Souls for PS3 :)
This is deep Besties lore and I'm so here for it!
I'm doing a relisten right now and that story stuck with me! Really looking forward to whatever you do next
I don’t get why some games they are like “We aren’t going to talk about it in detail because X controversy” and then others they have a whole segment on it and then just say “we report on games”. Pick a lane and stick to it guys! If this is a change in policy, fine, I just hope you stick to it more evenly than you have in the past. Right now it just feels like “yeah but we like this game so we’re going to talk about it anyway” vs “we aren’t touching that game with a 10ft pole because controversy”
It's hugely disappointing. Probably gonna drop the patreon because of this. That harry potter game was HUGE and they didn't touch that.
i had to recently drop my patreon sub due to personal financial issues and had been planning to sign back on asap, but after the “we don’t do ‘promotion’” dodge i’m not sure anymore…
Tbh “yeah but this game means a lot to me/us” is the only real reason that makes sense to me for deviating from any ethical policy on boycotting media, and I’m not as hard-nosed about judging that as I used to be.
They’ve see-sawed a bit over the years (fawning over No Rest for the Wicked vs talking about crunch for Lego Star Wars) and it feels confusing from the outside but I’m reminding myself they’re people, they have interests and feelings that aren’t just financial selfishness or moral self righteousness. Do I change my mind or point of view over time? Hell, from day to day?
And to be clear, my perspective is 100% because I just finished Monsters: A Fan’s Dilemma by Claire Dederer, so now I’m all invested in deep conversations about this stuff that feels simple to most people. But basically that book argues against the inherently capitalist framing of “we are what we are fans of” as “we are what we buy.”
So I’m at a place now where I’m much less sympathetic to the mindset that what you watch, read or play, what art you appreciate or media you consume, makes you a good or bad person. In Dederer’s words, “you’ll have to find some other way to accomplish that.” I know it feels and sounds right to say “vote with your wallet,” but I think that’s because we feel like we have so few ways to feel like we are making an actual good difference in this world so we fall back on our consumption habits when, in my opinion, you’ll have better luck zooming in to the more local level, on how people interact with people around them and their communities, instead of corporations.
Like, in practical terms, spending money on a product whose profit will go to a company that is also making money off of helping a government somewhere slaughter innocents seems abhorrent. But what is the actual math of that? If I paid $1 for a 14-day trial of game pass to play oblivion, THEN found Clair Obscur through that and dropped oblivion and played E33 for the rest of the trial (hint: that’s exactly what I did), am I responsible for more or less deaths than someone who did the same but only played oblivion, or someone who paid full price for a month but is only playing Blue Prince or Avowed or South of Midnight?
If that sounds disingenuous as a line of questioning or like a straw man or something, I totally get feeling that way, but then what is the counter argument? That any financial contribution whatsoever is immoral? Or that the morality is something we can all just kind of sense, that we can feel out within our guts, instead of engaging with spiraling whataboutisms? Because here’s the thing: that feeling method will lead to different results for different people, and if you try to be absolutist about it, you will very quickly end up indicting yourself. We’re in late stage capitalism, after all, and we’ve all got smartphones and other products made by slave labour.
So then go with the feelings barometer, in my book, but at the same time, accept that different people will feel and behave differently than you, that that doesn’t make them immoral, and keep in mind that that is still within the context of their consumptive, consumer behaviour that, by and large, is a drop in the bucket. I’m not saying don’t recycle because it won’t make a difference, but I am saying don’t take yourself too seriously judging people who recycle sometimes, and sometimes don’t.
Because, and here’s where I’ll end this stupid fucking Ted talk I wasn’t planning on launching into, eventually that attitude is gonna come back around to yourself, and we are all under that monumental capitalist thumb, so we really, really want to exercise the muscle of cutting others some slack or else we won’t be willing or able to do the same for ourselves.
I don’t know, the book explains it better. Sorry.
Thank you for taking the time to share this!
Honestly, I’d just like some consistency. If their view going forward is just going to be “we report on games we want to play regardless of controversy” that’s fine. But a few times they’ve decided mid-week not to talk about a game they were going to (games I was interested in hearing about) because they were too controversial. So it just feels kinda hypocritical and flip-floppy to hear them approach this game controversy completely differently. If they’ve changed their minds about it, that’s fine, I just wish they’d acknowledge that’s what happened. The way they brought it up didn’t feel like “we’ve changed our policy regarding how we’re handling this sort of thing” so much as “we just want to excuse THIS game because we want to talk about it anyway”. Like, yeah, man, I guarantee you most of the team that created the Hogwarts Legacy game really wishes JKR would’ve stfu and gone back to being a person we could admire instead so that their game didn’t get sidelined by her shitty opinions too.
Not to be flippant, but I just don’t think they really have a policy and they’re winging it (different rules for every GOTY tournament or battle bracket rubrics changing mid-episode, anyone?) and this was them wanting to talk about a game dropping that they had an important history with, and at the same time not wanting to ignore an important social cause that that game was in conflict with, and ultimately their handling of that situation falling flat with some people because those two impulses just don’t cleanly reconcile.
Like, for you, if you stand with BDS, then you just don’t discuss games by companies that are being boycotted. That makes sense and is very simple. For them, they wanted to acknowledge that source of controversy around the title, but not outright boycott it.
And the difference in approach between this game and Hogwarts is probably a combination of how much this game means to them, how directly linked the game is to the social cause, and maybe even it just being a couple of years between now and then and them not thinking they have a precedent they have to live up to. Now, I will grant you, Plante’s response to reader mail makes it sound like they think they have a comprehensive approach to covering controversial games, but honestly I just think that’s a one-off explanation that could have been skipped because yeah the “it’s not a paid promotion” point kind of felt insulting enough to invalidate the whole answer lol, that’s not at all what subscribers were worried about
With all that being said, be mad at them, vent here, unsub if you want, that all totally makes sense and is fair to do and I understand where you’re coming from. I don’t want to minimize the plight of Palestinians or give Microsoft a pass or any of that, either. But I think there’s just a personal side to this one that I sympathize with and I can understand them thinking that, on balance, it’s not the wrong thing to do.
First time, long time just to share my support for Chris (and all the other impacted staffers). Keeping an eye out for how to support your next venture!
So ready for your new podcast Plante! My subscribe finger is itching just send it my way. Also thanks for the delicate but appropriate way you all covered the BDS/Oblivion situation. You as a podcast do such a great job of towing the line between politics, speaking up for what is right, and remembering that we are here to hear you talk about video games first. Hats off IMHO
About not boycotting games on the show- why didn't you guys talk about Hogwarts Legacy in 2023? I was under the impression that you guys were refusing to discuss it because of Rowling's anti trans sentiment, but with what you were saying about the BDS/Microsoft stuff it seems like a bit of a double standard.
Anyways, I'm just curious, not mad or anything. My heart goes out to Plante and all the polygon ppl who got laid off.
i’m glad you at least touched on the BDS boycott of microsoft but the bit about “we don’t do promotion” seems like a big cop out and a way to dodge responsibility. i’m well aware you don’t do paid promotions, but you can’t pretend that your coverage has no influence on your listeners’ choices to buy or not buy games. i’ve bought MANY games after positive coverage here and i’ve surely decided NOT to buy a few games after hearing your coverage as well. deciding to cover a game and HOW to cover it, and the influence it will have on your fans are things you need to take responsibility for.
I hear you, I just have a different opinion. In the same way it would be unusual for a newspaper to cease reviewing specific films because of its investors or creators, I think it would be strange for us to stop covering major games. I do, however, agree it's important for us to include the context around the game. And I do recognize we haven't been consistent with this policy -- that's for us to be better about in the future.
That said, totally get if you passionately disagree. The tricky thing about journalistic ethics is that they aren't hard and fast rules that everybody agrees upon. And there are no perfect solutions.
but you already don’t cover all major games. as someone pointed out elsewhere, you choose not to cover hogwarts legacy. did the transphobia of rowling have a part in that decision? as a listener, i certainly assumed it did, and if it did, i am now led to assume that the besties are concerned with the politics of JKR but not concerned with the palestinian genocide… especially given that most of your time spent talking about it on this episode was dedicated to explaining why there was, in fact, no ethical issues in covering it, and not even talking about any of your own views on the boycott.
Not covering a one-off Harry Potter game is a much different ask than not covering any game with connections to Microsoft. To pretend otherwise is disingenuous. They made a very fair statement about the boycott to their adult audience who are consumers capable of making their own decisions based on the information provided.
“I do recognize we haven't been consistent with this policy -- that's for us to be better about in the future.” Did this not address your question?
Adding support for a Chris Plante solo podcast and also saying I thought Venn diagram of the Besties and The Mountain Goats fans was literally just me.
I'm going to see them in July. Looking forward to it!
I'm a long time besties and mountain goats listener. Just saw them a few months ago
Solidarity to you and the other Polygon and Giant Bomb people fucked over by greedy bosses.
Best of luck to everyone who's been laid off at Polygon or is staying on in these tumultuous times
Good luck to you, Chris. Can’t wait to hear the new show.
Plante, I will support you with clicks and with money no matter what you do! Hope to see you do something rad soon, as we know you’ll do.
A few years back, I started a second part-time career writing about video games and ended up at Valnet, like so many do. I won't put the organization on blast, I'll just say the content they were asking me to produce didn't align with what I wanted to create, and I amicably left the business. Wishing you, Chris, all the best, along with everyone else let go from Polygon.
Here's a small little bit of support I can offer. Five free gifted codes for Besties Patreon. Code below, just copy and paste the link. Please only take one. First come first serve.
https://www.patreon.com/TheBesties/redeem/f/665FAF867B
Thank you for this act of kindness!!
This is very cool of you, thank you!
This was very generous of you! I redeemed one. Can't wait to catch up on everything I've missed. Thank you!
Hey Chris, just wanted to reach out as your sometimes-internet-pal and say I am sad to see you have to move on from Polygon but exponentially more excited to see what you do next. There will come a day where this will be remembered as a stepping stone on your way to greater things. I know I speak for a large amount of your fans when I say we'll be there with you.
And if you ever need help with design or voiceover or anything I can assist with, don't hesitate to reach out! I'd be proud to help.
Cheers, buddy.
-Tyler (aka Zokstone)
Thank you!