The reaction that everyone has whenever Plante talks about an abstract narrative heavy game is how all of us that are sick of hearing about souls likes have all of the time.
I can kind of see why a company would want to release a game in Early Access, but I just cannot see my way to paying them for it. It feels like paying them for the privilege of being their beta tester, and that is a solid no from me and my games budget.
As someone who doesn’t have a large amount of free time to play games anymore, I find myself watching a lot of play throughs or having them on in the background while I do other things. Latest was a play through of Detroit: Become Human and it got me thinking of the debate between the validity of listening to an audiobook vs. reading a book. I personally feel listening to an audiobook is a more than valid way to experience a narrative, and often you may get a deeper experience or better understanding based on the emotion of the person reading the book. What do you all think of watching play throughs to experience a game? Do think anything is lost by not playing the game yourself?
As a gen z person who is now grown with a full time job and a wife, I find this an interesting conversation. I've found significant resentment towards long games like BG3. Watch through help me get the most out of those games. By contrast I love cheaper shorter games like animal well or rogue likes. For me the biggest anti against play throughs is that it often has someone talking over it and I don't like that
It definitely depends on the game and the person. Something is obviously lost when you don't actually play a game but if you hate a game, why play it? If you just wanna see what happens, it is going to be a better experience lol. You would hate playing it! For a lot of people I know, watching somebody play Deadly Premonition would be a lot more of an enjoyable experience than actually playing it. (I loved it though)
Having said that though, if it's not a game series/story you're already invested in (maybe you played the first one or it's just a really buzzy game), I'm not sure why you wouldn't just choose a tv show or audiobook.
While discussions about early access can be interesting, a lot of them turn into discussions about the concept of early access in general and what the game might be in the future. I feel like I'd rather hear a more in-depth conversation on an older game rather than a reaction to an incomplete game.
I do recognize that the main Besties episodes are for talking about the newest stuff and I may be an outlier with this sentiment. Regardless though - I enjoyed this episode - it definitely got a few chuckles out of me!
Hello from Ireland Besties! Love the show. I've just moved from Android to iPhone and was hoping you could recommend some games? Thanks for everything you do.
I don't think they have since I started listening about 2 years ago. That being said it's a good game but is it actually in 1.0 now? I thought it was still in EA?
This is neither here nor there but I was watching an old interview with Ben Schwartz (https://youtu.be/zy0Kt6b_nZE?si=Pe4eVN5fmJK_M6pv&t=88) where he says he pronounces it "Mare-io" and says everyone makes fun of him. So Russ can find some solidarity.
In response to Russ enjoying Jenny Tian’s standup, Taskmaster Australia season 2 just kicked off recently, and she’s a contestant on it. The season is only 2-3 episodes in but it’s some of the most passive aggressive - and sometimes outwardly aggressive - Taskmaster I’ve ever seen, and it’s fucking hilarious. I say this as someone who has watched every season of UK TM (most more than once), plus all the NZ and AU TM (I live in New Zealand and my wife and I have been to multiple studio recordings) to date. Highly, highly recommended for all fans of Taskmaster and/or Jenny Tian.
I'd like to take a moment to reccomend Nightmare Kart, a free steam game from LWMedia. I found it recently in my steam reccomendations, and it's become one of my favorite little games. It's like Bloodborne got a Mario Kart spinoff, but with low-poly graphics, more abilities and functions than Mario Kart, and is actually on PC (unlike bloodborne.) It combines Mario Kart-style races and battles with actual bossfights and voice-acted cutscenes in a real campaign, as well as supporting local multiplayer and free play, all with unique levels and a fun soundtrack. I would highly recommend it for the price of free, and the steam reviews so far seem to agree on all of my points. Just wanted to share!
Guys, Hellblade 2 took a core team of 100 people roughly 4 years to make. It's exactly the kind of game you're asking for. Moreover it's the game that the developers wanted to make. Quit using it as an indictment of the industry.
I hear you and I think there's a valid argument to your point. But I disagree.
To me, there's a significant difference between a 100 person team making a game over four years as part of a large publisher's P&L(with the obligation to be limited to specific platforms and be made available for "free" on GamePass, greatly depressing potential sales) and a 2-20 person team making a game over 2 years (without corporate overhead and the freedom to distribute where and at whatever cost they feel fit).
To run the math on Hellblade 2 (and forgive me, this is really back of the napkin stuff so take it with the appropriate boulder of salt):
The average pay for a game developer in the US is around $100k. That would represent 70% of their employment cost with an additional 30% covering benefits and overhead. So about $140k per person. A UK dev likely makes less. So to be cautious, let's say that one employee on the team, including salary and additional expenses, costs the equivalent of $110k US.
The studio with 100 employees costs $11 million a year to make payroll. After four years, that's $44 million. That's not including contractors, actors, outsourcing, performance capture, marketing, PR, etc. Or the additional cutting edge technology, fancy office spaces, potential Microsoft production support costs.
It's cheaper than GTA by a ton. And I agree that it's awesome they got to make the game they wanted. But I have questions about viability of a budget that's still huge -- roughly the size of a AAA budget in the late 2010s. We'll likely never know the sales figures, but Hellblade 2 only has a thousand more Steam reviews than Killer Clowns From Outer Space, and the latter just came out.
For me, that feels like a budgeting problem. Though I'd be extremely happy to be wrong here! Maybe it's a huge success and Xbox is happy with its GamePass conversions.
Frankly, that's the real challenge for both reporters, analysts, and even game developers on these teams right now. It's impossible for anyone outside the exec room of a company to know if something is a hit or a flop. There are no good metrics. And going off the news that Jason Schreier reported today about Suicide Squad, even the execs seem unclear on this until it's too late.
This circles back to what made me so upset about the Tango and other closures in the first place - it seems very disingenuous to buy up studios for games to include for “free” in your subscription service, foot the bill for those games, and then shut down their studios for not making enough money in sales to recover those costs when you effectively undercut the value of those sales.
It just seems like wanting to have it both ways and you can justify closing studios down from either direction - they didn’t sell enough or they didn’t convert enough. Compare to Netflix originals - does Netflix really care about how many blu-rays they sell? Could you imagine them cancelling a show for that reason?
Is it a requirement for Russ to mention something disgusting and gross on every intro? If it's not someone puking, toe-related, or some weird injury... it's egg-smell. Honesty please stop.
I see where you're coming from (I tend to love roguelites and not be a fan of roguelikes, so the distinction does matter to me) but I think part of making an accessible show is not getting too into the nitty-gritty on micro-genre differences.
The reaction that everyone has whenever Plante talks about an abstract narrative heavy game is how all of us that are sick of hearing about souls likes have all of the time.
I can kind of see why a company would want to release a game in Early Access, but I just cannot see my way to paying them for it. It feels like paying them for the privilege of being their beta tester, and that is a solid no from me and my games budget.
As someone who doesn’t have a large amount of free time to play games anymore, I find myself watching a lot of play throughs or having them on in the background while I do other things. Latest was a play through of Detroit: Become Human and it got me thinking of the debate between the validity of listening to an audiobook vs. reading a book. I personally feel listening to an audiobook is a more than valid way to experience a narrative, and often you may get a deeper experience or better understanding based on the emotion of the person reading the book. What do you all think of watching play throughs to experience a game? Do think anything is lost by not playing the game yourself?
As a gen z person who is now grown with a full time job and a wife, I find this an interesting conversation. I've found significant resentment towards long games like BG3. Watch through help me get the most out of those games. By contrast I love cheaper shorter games like animal well or rogue likes. For me the biggest anti against play throughs is that it often has someone talking over it and I don't like that
It definitely depends on the game and the person. Something is obviously lost when you don't actually play a game but if you hate a game, why play it? If you just wanna see what happens, it is going to be a better experience lol. You would hate playing it! For a lot of people I know, watching somebody play Deadly Premonition would be a lot more of an enjoyable experience than actually playing it. (I loved it though)
Having said that though, if it's not a game series/story you're already invested in (maybe you played the first one or it's just a really buzzy game), I'm not sure why you wouldn't just choose a tv show or audiobook.
While discussions about early access can be interesting, a lot of them turn into discussions about the concept of early access in general and what the game might be in the future. I feel like I'd rather hear a more in-depth conversation on an older game rather than a reaction to an incomplete game.
I do recognize that the main Besties episodes are for talking about the newest stuff and I may be an outlier with this sentiment. Regardless though - I enjoyed this episode - it definitely got a few chuckles out of me!
Hello from Ireland Besties! Love the show. I've just moved from Android to iPhone and was hoping you could recommend some games? Thanks for everything you do.
Some starting options!
What the Golf, What the Car, Desert Golfing, Tiny Wings, There Is No Game
Hey, I got Desert Golfing based on your cozy games episode! (Might have been a resties) it’s chill for sure
Thanks a million!
Did y’all ever play any RoboQuest? Bad name, fantastic borderlands-looking hero shooter roguelike with pretty frequent updates.
I don't think they have since I started listening about 2 years ago. That being said it's a good game but is it actually in 1.0 now? I thought it was still in EA?
It’s up to 1.3! New character class just launched and all
This is neither here nor there but I was watching an old interview with Ben Schwartz (https://youtu.be/zy0Kt6b_nZE?si=Pe4eVN5fmJK_M6pv&t=88) where he says he pronounces it "Mare-io" and says everyone makes fun of him. So Russ can find some solidarity.
In response to Russ enjoying Jenny Tian’s standup, Taskmaster Australia season 2 just kicked off recently, and she’s a contestant on it. The season is only 2-3 episodes in but it’s some of the most passive aggressive - and sometimes outwardly aggressive - Taskmaster I’ve ever seen, and it’s fucking hilarious. I say this as someone who has watched every season of UK TM (most more than once), plus all the NZ and AU TM (I live in New Zealand and my wife and I have been to multiple studio recordings) to date. Highly, highly recommended for all fans of Taskmaster and/or Jenny Tian.
I'd like to take a moment to reccomend Nightmare Kart, a free steam game from LWMedia. I found it recently in my steam reccomendations, and it's become one of my favorite little games. It's like Bloodborne got a Mario Kart spinoff, but with low-poly graphics, more abilities and functions than Mario Kart, and is actually on PC (unlike bloodborne.) It combines Mario Kart-style races and battles with actual bossfights and voice-acted cutscenes in a real campaign, as well as supporting local multiplayer and free play, all with unique levels and a fun soundtrack. I would highly recommend it for the price of free, and the steam reviews so far seem to agree on all of my points. Just wanted to share!
Guys, Hellblade 2 took a core team of 100 people roughly 4 years to make. It's exactly the kind of game you're asking for. Moreover it's the game that the developers wanted to make. Quit using it as an indictment of the industry.
From Plante:
I hear you and I think there's a valid argument to your point. But I disagree.
To me, there's a significant difference between a 100 person team making a game over four years as part of a large publisher's P&L(with the obligation to be limited to specific platforms and be made available for "free" on GamePass, greatly depressing potential sales) and a 2-20 person team making a game over 2 years (without corporate overhead and the freedom to distribute where and at whatever cost they feel fit).
To run the math on Hellblade 2 (and forgive me, this is really back of the napkin stuff so take it with the appropriate boulder of salt):
The average pay for a game developer in the US is around $100k. That would represent 70% of their employment cost with an additional 30% covering benefits and overhead. So about $140k per person. A UK dev likely makes less. So to be cautious, let's say that one employee on the team, including salary and additional expenses, costs the equivalent of $110k US.
The studio with 100 employees costs $11 million a year to make payroll. After four years, that's $44 million. That's not including contractors, actors, outsourcing, performance capture, marketing, PR, etc. Or the additional cutting edge technology, fancy office spaces, potential Microsoft production support costs.
It's cheaper than GTA by a ton. And I agree that it's awesome they got to make the game they wanted. But I have questions about viability of a budget that's still huge -- roughly the size of a AAA budget in the late 2010s. We'll likely never know the sales figures, but Hellblade 2 only has a thousand more Steam reviews than Killer Clowns From Outer Space, and the latter just came out.
For me, that feels like a budgeting problem. Though I'd be extremely happy to be wrong here! Maybe it's a huge success and Xbox is happy with its GamePass conversions.
Frankly, that's the real challenge for both reporters, analysts, and even game developers on these teams right now. It's impossible for anyone outside the exec room of a company to know if something is a hit or a flop. There are no good metrics. And going off the news that Jason Schreier reported today about Suicide Squad, even the execs seem unclear on this until it's too late.
This circles back to what made me so upset about the Tango and other closures in the first place - it seems very disingenuous to buy up studios for games to include for “free” in your subscription service, foot the bill for those games, and then shut down their studios for not making enough money in sales to recover those costs when you effectively undercut the value of those sales.
It just seems like wanting to have it both ways and you can justify closing studios down from either direction - they didn’t sell enough or they didn’t convert enough. Compare to Netflix originals - does Netflix really care about how many blu-rays they sell? Could you imagine them cancelling a show for that reason?
Was this their first mention of Hellblade 2? I loved the first, and am excited to play the new one.
Surprised they haven't discussed it more tbh
Russ and Plante talked about it on the Patreon Resties.
Womp womp I'm poor
Is it a requirement for Russ to mention something disgusting and gross on every intro? If it's not someone puking, toe-related, or some weird injury... it's egg-smell. Honesty please stop.
I’m low key excited to hear Griffin’s thoughts on the finale to The Final Shape. IMO they fucking hit that landing.
Pouring one out of Little Big Planet. Gone but not forgotten.
please stop calling roguelites roguelikes :(
I see where you're coming from (I tend to love roguelites and not be a fan of roguelikes, so the distinction does matter to me) but I think part of making an accessible show is not getting too into the nitty-gritty on micro-genre differences.
please stop calling roguelites roguelikes :(
Wait a sec, is Shadow of the Erdtree gonna beat my ass because I'm in NG+? ☠️☠️☠️