So…I gotta go with Griffin on Zelda. Yes, BG 3 is truly amazing when it comes to narrative, BUT it is extremely frustrating to play what at times feels like an unfinished game when Tears of the Kingdom came out of the box in its final perfect form. No updates, no tacked on epilogue, no weekly hot fix, no disappearing NPC’s, just a kick ass experience from top to bottom.
Despite these criticisms, I adore BG 3. I think it actually has things to say with its narrative and borders on actual art. It certainly is a massive accomplishment. That being said…when it comes to pound for pound fun and playability, Zelda wins out every time.
Great conversation though, guys. I started playing Sea of Stars because of Justin’s growing love for it, and I’m having a blast. Was actually playing it while listening to the new episode and sipping my morning coffee.
Counterpoint, BG3 has fashion, dating sim, multiplayer, modding, replayability.
You make great points though, it's not the easiest to pick up. It's complex and has menus and inventory management, and doesn't autosave as often as I'd like.
But nothing beats gaming in BG3 with friends, for me.
I loved TOTK but I don't feel like it added enough on its own. So much of it depended on BOTW. Even just random NPCs were very often reused from BOTW. But BG3 has introduced some insane mechanics that are going to be changing the scene for years to come just like BOTW did.
I love you guys and I know you addressed this but how did you not all beat Baldur’s Gate 3 before this..? It was clear it was going to be Zelda vs BG3 basically since your episode on it.
I know you all have family and lives, totally get it, but I’d love to hear a full spoiler BG3 episode in the new year!
The answer has to do with what we prioritize for the show and our listeners. When we started the show, I think we took the best game of the year showdown a bit too seriously. As a result, we played fewer games and had fewer things to share with our listeners. The show shrunk. And, personally speaking, it made for a worse (and more antagonistic) show.
These days, we're much more interested in having new games to introduce to each other and our listeners each week. So we play more games, but rarely see the end of anything that stretches past the 100 hour mark. Arguably this makes less declarative final game of the year pick, though in exchange for a few minutes of "This game is number one" we get dozens of hours of "all these other games aren't #1 but we think you'll love them!"
Oddly, the plurality of our show title makes more sense now! Not the Besty but the Besties.
That’s totally fair! Thanks for the comment. I’ve enjoyed lots of great games I otherwise wouldn’t have because of the show this year, so thanks for the great work you do 😄
Quick indie recommendation y'all may dig: Mosa Lina. Its a 2D puzzle/physics game where you get randomized tools you gotta use together to get to the objective, just came out in October.
Reminds me a lot of when you solve a TOTK shrine in a way that was not intended by the devs, big emphasis on lateral thinking!
+1 to this, Mosa Lina feels like it’s introducing a set of ideas that could blossom into broader ways of designing endlessly replayable games where the experience itself is the reward for playing. I commented about it before and can’t stop singing its praises. It’s gotten some attention already -- the GMTK video does a great job diving into what makes it so special. Would looove to hear what y’all think of it.
I really love and respect these boys so much but I feel like sometimes they have blinders on and ignore the criticisms they have for one game when they apply just as much to another. I think that bringing up that the RE4 remake is 80% the original RE and using that as a criticism against it and then NOT addressing that TOTK is 80% BOTW is sort of wild. And that’s not to say that either is not very well constructed or executed, but when you’re comparing it to a game which is wholly it’s own thing, I think it’s really hard not to take that into consideration.
Also just sort of glossing over the fact that some of the Besties had to cheese or glitch the game to make it more palatable is sort of crazy as well.
Recency bias can work in reverse too. Griffin definitely forgot a lot of the complaints they made about TotK in the months since. BG3 is months newer, so the complains are fresher.
I felt like I was taking crazy pills with the whole "everything just works" narrative (insert dig about apple users here) on TotK. I had many frustrating moments dealing with the building mechanics that left me basically playing the game like I did BotW: almost totally on foot.
I'm currently revisiting your back-catalogue and I came across an episode from September of 2020. In the cold-open Russ regales the gang with a story in which he accidentally accumulates 7 wholesale-sized boxes of Frosted Mini-Wheats. It's been over three years. Can we get an update? Did Russ ever finish his enormous stockpile of cereal?
Having played both of the top 2 games to completion, the argument about the endings being the deal breaker really did not make sense to me. I loved the ending sequence in TOTK personally, however the overall narrative, storytelling, and freedom of choice in BG3 is unmatched. I finished BG3 before the epilogue patch, and even with some slight performance issues and a somewhat uninspired wrap up, I still held it high above Zelda in the storytelling department. Also, I really hope a lot more of the Besties get to the Raphael fight, because when Griffon mentioned Zelda having one of the best soundtracks, I was surprised no one mentioned the song that accompanies that fight. It basically a perfect Disney villain song that comes out of nowhere and blows you away.
Maybe I’m being facetious here but if BG3 is so good, why has only one of the four of them finished it?
In fact - the only one who had finished it was the only one who went for TOTK, and as he was the only one who’d finished both games - wasn’t he the only one informed enough to make a call? Particularly as Act 3/the ending is what many people say marks the game down?
I adore both games, and I know BG3 is absolutely enormous, so it’s all academic really, but just struck me as a bit odd.
They cover a different game every week. The chance that they finish all of them, or even a majority of them, is minute. So if you are going to call that a requirement for making the final decision, then it should be a requirement for the whole bracket, in which case game of the year can only be something all four of them have finished.
In this instance though I feel like with a game that’s strongest point is its ambitious and sprawling narrative, with such importance put on character development and player choice impact, it makes it more important to see the whole story through. Probably more than any other game.
You’re right though, I’m definitely expecting too much. And I actually agree with them re: BG3 overall. Just thought it was interesting that the only one that had finished both games chose TotK specifically because of the finishing of the game.
Good to hear that BG3 won out overall. It'd be a shame for you guys to write off Spidey 2 as a remake and then hand the trophy to Breath of the Wild: Nuts & Bolts.
I do think that the comparison of BG3's new epilogue to ME3 is a bad one if only because the ME3 ending was made specifically to address how terrible the original game's ending was AND it cost money. The BG3 epilogue is free. It's like a bug fix.
But did Griffin take into consideration that BG3 is also a fashion, dating sim with modding and multiplayer? Plus huge replayability. We love the journey more than the destination.
I also agree with Griffin. Baulders Gate was such an outstanding achievement, but Tears of the Kingdom was nearly perfect for me. I'll also put this out there...there were thee besties episodes this year dedicated to talking about tears of the kingdom, and although they talked about Baulders Gate a lot since it came out, I'm pretty sure it only had one dedicated episode...so yea, I'll just let that sit there haha.
Regardless, awesome year and I'm not disappointed with the decision. Thank you for another awesome year of besties!
I've seen other people spell it as "Baulder" before and I have no idea where this comes from. It's not even spelled like that in God of War or in norse mythology
I adored BG3. But totally agree with Griffin's points only I would take it further. There were too many times where certain characters just disappeared that my objectives clearly stated something different until finally the objective just changed to "they died, sorry."
Whether that was working as designed and just the story/objective cohesion was poor, that still colored the experience for me. There were a number of times the next steps or the implications of an action were super unclear, or the major steps I took ended up not having any bearing. Mostly I chopped all this up to ambition and I still loved my time with it.
Every time I hear those moments it feels like player error to me. I know exactly what griffin is talking about and at the end of act 2 he HAD a quest that said "talk to that person" and he clicked the button that says "This is irreversible and will progress things"
Love the show, loved the GOTY episodes. I think the writing was sort of on the wall this year with the top 2, but I thought your approach was thoughtful.
One thing that bums me out though - booting Sea of Stars out of the final four. Across all of these GOTY discussions, indie games never get any love against AAA titles. It makes sense to a degree - you spend millions to make a huge, excellent game and that deserves recognition. But SoS did something pretty unique and I felt like it deserved it's place among BG3, TOTK, AW2, and RE4.
With that said, have you guys considered a non-AAA bracket? Maybe not necessarily "indie" GOTY, but a separate ranking for games that can't truly compete with the behemoths.
Yeah, I was salty about that as well. I am 40, I played most of the games that these retro-inspired games are based on in real time when they originally came out, and SoS came as close to hitting the vibe of Chrono Trigger as anything else has that I've experienced.
i see what y'all saying but they've literally chosen Obra Dinn as a GOTY, a short and indie game...I don't think that an AAA dictates directly what they prefer. Maybe in a way that it is more time spent, but again, Obra Dinn is a a strong case.
I'm hoping the Lies of P sequel we get will be Lies of Minnelli, the groundbreaking autobiographical action RPG about Liza's life and career.
STOP IT. You win the internet today
"Lies of with a P" has been an intrusive thought in my head any time this game is mentioned
I’ll never forgive Plante’s betrayal of Griffin in this ep.
So…I gotta go with Griffin on Zelda. Yes, BG 3 is truly amazing when it comes to narrative, BUT it is extremely frustrating to play what at times feels like an unfinished game when Tears of the Kingdom came out of the box in its final perfect form. No updates, no tacked on epilogue, no weekly hot fix, no disappearing NPC’s, just a kick ass experience from top to bottom.
Despite these criticisms, I adore BG 3. I think it actually has things to say with its narrative and borders on actual art. It certainly is a massive accomplishment. That being said…when it comes to pound for pound fun and playability, Zelda wins out every time.
Great conversation though, guys. I started playing Sea of Stars because of Justin’s growing love for it, and I’m having a blast. Was actually playing it while listening to the new episode and sipping my morning coffee.
Counterpoint, BG3 has fashion, dating sim, multiplayer, modding, replayability.
You make great points though, it's not the easiest to pick up. It's complex and has menus and inventory management, and doesn't autosave as often as I'd like.
But nothing beats gaming in BG3 with friends, for me.
I loved TOTK but I don't feel like it added enough on its own. So much of it depended on BOTW. Even just random NPCs were very often reused from BOTW. But BG3 has introduced some insane mechanics that are going to be changing the scene for years to come just like BOTW did.
I love you guys and I know you addressed this but how did you not all beat Baldur’s Gate 3 before this..? It was clear it was going to be Zelda vs BG3 basically since your episode on it.
I know you all have family and lives, totally get it, but I’d love to hear a full spoiler BG3 episode in the new year!
A fair question!
The answer has to do with what we prioritize for the show and our listeners. When we started the show, I think we took the best game of the year showdown a bit too seriously. As a result, we played fewer games and had fewer things to share with our listeners. The show shrunk. And, personally speaking, it made for a worse (and more antagonistic) show.
These days, we're much more interested in having new games to introduce to each other and our listeners each week. So we play more games, but rarely see the end of anything that stretches past the 100 hour mark. Arguably this makes less declarative final game of the year pick, though in exchange for a few minutes of "This game is number one" we get dozens of hours of "all these other games aren't #1 but we think you'll love them!"
Oddly, the plurality of our show title makes more sense now! Not the Besty but the Besties.
That’s totally fair! Thanks for the comment. I’ve enjoyed lots of great games I otherwise wouldn’t have because of the show this year, so thanks for the great work you do 😄
Whoa, Plante nailed those categories, eh?
Quick indie recommendation y'all may dig: Mosa Lina. Its a 2D puzzle/physics game where you get randomized tools you gotta use together to get to the objective, just came out in October.
Reminds me a lot of when you solve a TOTK shrine in a way that was not intended by the devs, big emphasis on lateral thinking!
Thanks guys!
+1 to this, Mosa Lina feels like it’s introducing a set of ideas that could blossom into broader ways of designing endlessly replayable games where the experience itself is the reward for playing. I commented about it before and can’t stop singing its praises. It’s gotten some attention already -- the GMTK video does a great job diving into what makes it so special. Would looove to hear what y’all think of it.
Unrelated but The Snowman being #1 on this letterboxd list is an s tier choice. Everyone here should watch The Snowman.
I really love and respect these boys so much but I feel like sometimes they have blinders on and ignore the criticisms they have for one game when they apply just as much to another. I think that bringing up that the RE4 remake is 80% the original RE and using that as a criticism against it and then NOT addressing that TOTK is 80% BOTW is sort of wild. And that’s not to say that either is not very well constructed or executed, but when you’re comparing it to a game which is wholly it’s own thing, I think it’s really hard not to take that into consideration.
Also just sort of glossing over the fact that some of the Besties had to cheese or glitch the game to make it more palatable is sort of crazy as well.
Recency bias can work in reverse too. Griffin definitely forgot a lot of the complaints they made about TotK in the months since. BG3 is months newer, so the complains are fresher.
I felt like I was taking crazy pills with the whole "everything just works" narrative (insert dig about apple users here) on TotK. I had many frustrating moments dealing with the building mechanics that left me basically playing the game like I did BotW: almost totally on foot.
That's such a good point
Hello Besties!
I'm currently revisiting your back-catalogue and I came across an episode from September of 2020. In the cold-open Russ regales the gang with a story in which he accidentally accumulates 7 wholesale-sized boxes of Frosted Mini-Wheats. It's been over three years. Can we get an update? Did Russ ever finish his enormous stockpile of cereal?
Thanks! Love the show!
Actually, my apologies. It was covered in a later episode. Russ ate it every night and gave himself terrible acid reflux.
that's one of my favourite Russ cold opens, lol
Having played both of the top 2 games to completion, the argument about the endings being the deal breaker really did not make sense to me. I loved the ending sequence in TOTK personally, however the overall narrative, storytelling, and freedom of choice in BG3 is unmatched. I finished BG3 before the epilogue patch, and even with some slight performance issues and a somewhat uninspired wrap up, I still held it high above Zelda in the storytelling department. Also, I really hope a lot more of the Besties get to the Raphael fight, because when Griffon mentioned Zelda having one of the best soundtracks, I was surprised no one mentioned the song that accompanies that fight. It basically a perfect Disney villain song that comes out of nowhere and blows you away.
ToTK is my GOTY personally, but I was really hoping someone would bring up the shortcomings of the narrative.
BG3 narrative branching vs. hearing "s-secret... stone?" 4 times.
Maybe I’m being facetious here but if BG3 is so good, why has only one of the four of them finished it?
In fact - the only one who had finished it was the only one who went for TOTK, and as he was the only one who’d finished both games - wasn’t he the only one informed enough to make a call? Particularly as Act 3/the ending is what many people say marks the game down?
I adore both games, and I know BG3 is absolutely enormous, so it’s all academic really, but just struck me as a bit odd.
They cover a different game every week. The chance that they finish all of them, or even a majority of them, is minute. So if you are going to call that a requirement for making the final decision, then it should be a requirement for the whole bracket, in which case game of the year can only be something all four of them have finished.
Fair, agree in general.
In this instance though I feel like with a game that’s strongest point is its ambitious and sprawling narrative, with such importance put on character development and player choice impact, it makes it more important to see the whole story through. Probably more than any other game.
You’re right though, I’m definitely expecting too much. And I actually agree with them re: BG3 overall. Just thought it was interesting that the only one that had finished both games chose TotK specifically because of the finishing of the game.
Good to hear that BG3 won out overall. It'd be a shame for you guys to write off Spidey 2 as a remake and then hand the trophy to Breath of the Wild: Nuts & Bolts.
I do think that the comparison of BG3's new epilogue to ME3 is a bad one if only because the ME3 ending was made specifically to address how terrible the original game's ending was AND it cost money. The BG3 epilogue is free. It's like a bug fix.
The fix to ME3’s ending was free. Are you thinking of the paid Citadel DLC?
Yeah, almost certainly.
Man, that was like eleven years ago. Jesus.
But did Griffin take into consideration that BG3 is also a fashion, dating sim with modding and multiplayer? Plus huge replayability. We love the journey more than the destination.
I also agree with Griffin. Baulders Gate was such an outstanding achievement, but Tears of the Kingdom was nearly perfect for me. I'll also put this out there...there were thee besties episodes this year dedicated to talking about tears of the kingdom, and although they talked about Baulders Gate a lot since it came out, I'm pretty sure it only had one dedicated episode...so yea, I'll just let that sit there haha.
Regardless, awesome year and I'm not disappointed with the decision. Thank you for another awesome year of besties!
I've seen other people spell it as "Baulder" before and I have no idea where this comes from. It's not even spelled like that in God of War or in norse mythology
I adored BG3. But totally agree with Griffin's points only I would take it further. There were too many times where certain characters just disappeared that my objectives clearly stated something different until finally the objective just changed to "they died, sorry."
Whether that was working as designed and just the story/objective cohesion was poor, that still colored the experience for me. There were a number of times the next steps or the implications of an action were super unclear, or the major steps I took ended up not having any bearing. Mostly I chopped all this up to ambition and I still loved my time with it.
Every time I hear those moments it feels like player error to me. I know exactly what griffin is talking about and at the end of act 2 he HAD a quest that said "talk to that person" and he clicked the button that says "This is irreversible and will progress things"
Love the show, loved the GOTY episodes. I think the writing was sort of on the wall this year with the top 2, but I thought your approach was thoughtful.
One thing that bums me out though - booting Sea of Stars out of the final four. Across all of these GOTY discussions, indie games never get any love against AAA titles. It makes sense to a degree - you spend millions to make a huge, excellent game and that deserves recognition. But SoS did something pretty unique and I felt like it deserved it's place among BG3, TOTK, AW2, and RE4.
With that said, have you guys considered a non-AAA bracket? Maybe not necessarily "indie" GOTY, but a separate ranking for games that can't truly compete with the behemoths.
Yeah, I was salty about that as well. I am 40, I played most of the games that these retro-inspired games are based on in real time when they originally came out, and SoS came as close to hitting the vibe of Chrono Trigger as anything else has that I've experienced.
Yeah I like the idea of other brackets! Maybe one for shorter games?
i see what y'all saying but they've literally chosen Obra Dinn as a GOTY, a short and indie game...I don't think that an AAA dictates directly what they prefer. Maybe in a way that it is more time spent, but again, Obra Dinn is a a strong case.
And Hades in 2020