A massively influential early 80s game that I thought could have bore some consideration—and could have been the permadeath roguelike on your list!—is Oregon Trail (the first graphical version, the one that gets dysentery-memed, etc). It is and will forever be the greatest of educational games, a touchstone for survival games, and as I say, the version of Rogue that everyone actually played.
I just wanted to say that I think Chris and Russ (and Justin to a lesser extent, on occasion) are really doing themselves a disservice by couching these discussions in a super anti-intellectual "blegh, smart things are boring, games are just fun and silly" setting - I think you guys have genuinely smart and insightful things to say about games, that are interesting and add immensely to the cultural conversation. Calling this list something for "snobby assholes at a party" lessens both yourselves (after doing a significant amount of intellectual labor!) AND your listeners! We're smart! You're smart! Those things aren't incompatible with liking games, and I really wish you'd stop saying as much.
Completely agree. Further to that, I’d also like these wonderful boys to stop worrying that they are getting too deep into detailed analysis of the game or technical factors or things like that. Pick the narrative or gameplay or characters to the bones, guys. Go deep, we’ll follow!
I adored this series, thanks for putting it together. Who’s up for playing these through over the next few years?!
My unsolicited advice for the upcoming prediction episode ->
To address the difficulty of getting both hosts to pick predictions of a similar difficulty, I wonder if the following format would be more interesting:
* both hosts bring 3 or 4 predictions to the show
* after revealing all the predictions, alternate (or snake draft) claiming any of the 6-8 prediction as your own.
This would add an element of game theory where each host is attempting to generate predictions they’re confident in, but think the other host wouldn’t share the same high level of confidence.
I think that might be a fun wrinkle that would make the whole thing feel a bit more fair and competitive. Or it might just suck all the fun out of it :)
This list is spectacular. I was sitting and thinking about it in the aftermath and, while there are many inclusions to be made even if you only added one more slot, I would push hard for Mario Kart 8. I would say that game, more than any other, really highlighted Nintendo’s commitment to leave the console wars behind and occupy their own space in gaming. I realize that the Wii and Wii U also made that pretty plain, but Mario Kart 8 showcases exactly what their offering was in a post motion control era: Very well made games that are approachable, fun at a variety of skill levels, and that retain the couch multiplayer that has been almost entirely left behind in the rest of gaming. I don’t mean to say that model is better, but there will always be a huge need for it, and MK8 is the best example of them filling that need in a modern context.
You guys have to try Strange Horticulture, and would love to hear your thoughts about it. What a charming, atmospheric little mystery game, set in a greenhouse. Chill vibes, great little story, wonderful game. Also, short! A playthrough only takes 6-8 hours. Also Also, you get to pet Hellebore. Win win.
Loved this project so much and I think the list turned out awesome.
Having Stephen come in was fantastic!
It would be really cool to have Justin and Griffin talk to the final list/on this project in general. I always really enjoy Justin’s thoughts on things like game preservation etc, and I think the goals of this project, particularly the imagined framework of a museum exhibit, dovetail really nicely with that topic as well.
Dec 12, 2023·edited Dec 12, 2023Liked by The Besties
Ahoy lads, this was great. No notes (though if you leave system shock 2 out of the 201 syllabus, yikes my dudes, yikes).
I can picture this reading list as a big, classy coffee table book with high style, good design and clever insights. I’m imagining something similar to Kim Bjorn’s Push Turn Move (Chris Plante this could be your jam, and probably the jam of many listeners, recommended).
Couldn’t agree more about the coffee table book idea. I just kept picturing that, or like an actual textbook, while listening. It would be such a great resource and a great outlet for all the mental work y’all put into this. I could easily see 5 or 6 (or more) pages per game, with some great images, interviews, context essays. You could even add like interstitial chapters on things that didn’t quite make it into the list (like a section on roguelikes or an essay version of the RPG discussion). I bet Justin would write a heckin introduction considering his passion for the history of video games.
Like seriously there are so many ideas y’all could use to fill this list out into a gorgeous 200-250 page coffee table book.
I would buy the ever-loving heck out of a book like that. I've shared the show with friends and family but having a physical resource like that to discuss the reading list and the medium of games in general would be incredible!
I'm sure you're going to get a ton of comments on this one, so I'll just say I enjoyed the discussion!
I think a great format for next year would be to do a tour of the genres - what are the definitive action adventure game throughout eras of time? How about strategy game? JRPG? Genre is often a kind of meaningless construct, but it could be a fun way do kind of a similar thing as this list.
Sorry to comment on an old topic, but I recently caught up on the last month of shows. Re:Mario Wonder &couch co-op with kids. I kept my old PS3 around just so I could play Little Big Planet with my kids (9&6 at the time) and it was by far some of the most fun filled, hilarious gaming I’ve ever experienced. I will not soon forget the intense last-bit-of-health, critical timing moments of tricky platforming that were suddenly interrupted (mid-jump) by my son popping into the sticker menu to change clothes. I carried those two useless slackers through every screen of that game… laughing our asses off.
What are some of y'all's video game pet peeves? One of my biggest is when a game inverts the camera when you transition from an area so that if you hold forward you go back the way you came. Absolutely the worst.
My favorite video game/anime related artist is Pikanoa! (@pikanoa on insta, pikanoa.com) I first saw her work in the Pixel Museum in Strasbourg, which I think puts her basically on Manet’s level 😂
Loved this whole process! This was such a fun series to listen to. The list leaves me with a lot of games I've never tried, and now I'm definitely going to check them out.
My only complaint on this list is Outer Wilds. In a few episodes, Russ and Chris talked about some games being more appropriate for a "Video Games 102" course, and Outer Wilds definitely fits that description for me. It just doesn't feel fundamental in the way that the other games in this list do.
Something like Rogue or Oregon Trail would have been a better fit, I think.
But you can't please everyone! Thanks anyway for going through such an entertaining exercise.
i had a similar thought when they read back the list at the end of the episode. But the more i think about it, Outer Wilds is the perfect example of the potential of video games, and i great sort of “final exam” if you were to go through the decades and see how far we’ve come since pac man. It’s not just pong anymore, folks!
A massively influential early 80s game that I thought could have bore some consideration—and could have been the permadeath roguelike on your list!—is Oregon Trail (the first graphical version, the one that gets dysentery-memed, etc). It is and will forever be the greatest of educational games, a touchstone for survival games, and as I say, the version of Rogue that everyone actually played.
I’ll spare you my rhapsody on ZORK.
Nice work, gentlemen!
I just wanted to say that I think Chris and Russ (and Justin to a lesser extent, on occasion) are really doing themselves a disservice by couching these discussions in a super anti-intellectual "blegh, smart things are boring, games are just fun and silly" setting - I think you guys have genuinely smart and insightful things to say about games, that are interesting and add immensely to the cultural conversation. Calling this list something for "snobby assholes at a party" lessens both yourselves (after doing a significant amount of intellectual labor!) AND your listeners! We're smart! You're smart! Those things aren't incompatible with liking games, and I really wish you'd stop saying as much.
Completely agree. Further to that, I’d also like these wonderful boys to stop worrying that they are getting too deep into detailed analysis of the game or technical factors or things like that. Pick the narrative or gameplay or characters to the bones, guys. Go deep, we’ll follow!
Amen!
Having cut Hearthstone and noting the lack of a roguelike, I feel I would have pushed hard for Slay the Spire, but this is a fantastic list.
(Related to StS, still quite enjoying Cobalt Core!)
Given how many roguelike deckbuilders we've gotten since, Slay the Spire is a great call
I adored this series, thanks for putting it together. Who’s up for playing these through over the next few years?!
My unsolicited advice for the upcoming prediction episode ->
To address the difficulty of getting both hosts to pick predictions of a similar difficulty, I wonder if the following format would be more interesting:
* both hosts bring 3 or 4 predictions to the show
* after revealing all the predictions, alternate (or snake draft) claiming any of the 6-8 prediction as your own.
This would add an element of game theory where each host is attempting to generate predictions they’re confident in, but think the other host wouldn’t share the same high level of confidence.
I think that might be a fun wrinkle that would make the whole thing feel a bit more fair and competitive. Or it might just suck all the fun out of it :)
Great idea!
This list is spectacular. I was sitting and thinking about it in the aftermath and, while there are many inclusions to be made even if you only added one more slot, I would push hard for Mario Kart 8. I would say that game, more than any other, really highlighted Nintendo’s commitment to leave the console wars behind and occupy their own space in gaming. I realize that the Wii and Wii U also made that pretty plain, but Mario Kart 8 showcases exactly what their offering was in a post motion control era: Very well made games that are approachable, fun at a variety of skill levels, and that retain the couch multiplayer that has been almost entirely left behind in the rest of gaming. I don’t mean to say that model is better, but there will always be a huge need for it, and MK8 is the best example of them filling that need in a modern context.
GAME RECOMMENDATION:
You guys have to try Strange Horticulture, and would love to hear your thoughts about it. What a charming, atmospheric little mystery game, set in a greenhouse. Chill vibes, great little story, wonderful game. Also, short! A playthrough only takes 6-8 hours. Also Also, you get to pet Hellebore. Win win.
Loved this project so much and I think the list turned out awesome.
Having Stephen come in was fantastic!
It would be really cool to have Justin and Griffin talk to the final list/on this project in general. I always really enjoy Justin’s thoughts on things like game preservation etc, and I think the goals of this project, particularly the imagined framework of a museum exhibit, dovetail really nicely with that topic as well.
Ahoy lads, this was great. No notes (though if you leave system shock 2 out of the 201 syllabus, yikes my dudes, yikes).
I can picture this reading list as a big, classy coffee table book with high style, good design and clever insights. I’m imagining something similar to Kim Bjorn’s Push Turn Move (Chris Plante this could be your jam, and probably the jam of many listeners, recommended).
Couldn’t agree more about the coffee table book idea. I just kept picturing that, or like an actual textbook, while listening. It would be such a great resource and a great outlet for all the mental work y’all put into this. I could easily see 5 or 6 (or more) pages per game, with some great images, interviews, context essays. You could even add like interstitial chapters on things that didn’t quite make it into the list (like a section on roguelikes or an essay version of the RPG discussion). I bet Justin would write a heckin introduction considering his passion for the history of video games.
Like seriously there are so many ideas y’all could use to fill this list out into a gorgeous 200-250 page coffee table book.
I would buy the ever-loving heck out of a book like that. I've shared the show with friends and family but having a physical resource like that to discuss the reading list and the medium of games in general would be incredible!
I'm sure you're going to get a ton of comments on this one, so I'll just say I enjoyed the discussion!
I think a great format for next year would be to do a tour of the genres - what are the definitive action adventure game throughout eras of time? How about strategy game? JRPG? Genre is often a kind of meaningless construct, but it could be a fun way do kind of a similar thing as this list.
ART RECOMMENDATION
David Bull's traditional Japanese woodblock prints of classic Nintendo characters. We have the Mario Kart print framed on our living room wall.
https://mokuhankan.com/heroes/collection.html
Sorry to comment on an old topic, but I recently caught up on the last month of shows. Re:Mario Wonder &couch co-op with kids. I kept my old PS3 around just so I could play Little Big Planet with my kids (9&6 at the time) and it was by far some of the most fun filled, hilarious gaming I’ve ever experienced. I will not soon forget the intense last-bit-of-health, critical timing moments of tricky platforming that were suddenly interrupted (mid-jump) by my son popping into the sticker menu to change clothes. I carried those two useless slackers through every screen of that game… laughing our asses off.
A great history of Tetris, as told by the Gaming Historian: https://youtu.be/_fQtxKmgJC8?si=lsvP9YPSbkiadHjr
What are some of y'all's video game pet peeves? One of my biggest is when a game inverts the camera when you transition from an area so that if you hold forward you go back the way you came. Absolutely the worst.
My favorite video game/anime related artist is Pikanoa! (@pikanoa on insta, pikanoa.com) I first saw her work in the Pixel Museum in Strasbourg, which I think puts her basically on Manet’s level 😂
Loved this whole process! This was such a fun series to listen to. The list leaves me with a lot of games I've never tried, and now I'm definitely going to check them out.
My only complaint on this list is Outer Wilds. In a few episodes, Russ and Chris talked about some games being more appropriate for a "Video Games 102" course, and Outer Wilds definitely fits that description for me. It just doesn't feel fundamental in the way that the other games in this list do.
Something like Rogue or Oregon Trail would have been a better fit, I think.
But you can't please everyone! Thanks anyway for going through such an entertaining exercise.
i had a similar thought when they read back the list at the end of the episode. But the more i think about it, Outer Wilds is the perfect example of the potential of video games, and i great sort of “final exam” if you were to go through the decades and see how far we’ve come since pac man. It’s not just pong anymore, folks!
It’s not anime art, but I think Phoebe Joynt makes some awesome stuff that could make a nice prize for the winner (Plante)
https://phoebejoynt.com/